So - we need to get back all Ukrainian territories, because after Butscha, there is no way the peace talks could have continued. Right?
Sure, if you like to hold on to your self delusions and fairytales…
So…
1.
But Mr. Zelensky, visiting Bucha on April 4, said the talks would go on, even as Russia dismissed the Bucha atrocities as a staged “provocation.”
src: click (NYT, June 15th 2024)
Well, that - but…
2.
“He also said at the time, days after the Butscha massacre was discovered in early April of 2022, he suggested that Putin might not be fully aware of the warcrimes that his soldiers are committing. And we still need to talk to Putin.
Quite quickly, but certainly over the course of the next weeks that followed, his views, evolved partly under the influence of his advisors. You know this is -- like any administration there are different opinions, and they were discussing what to do, what should be our position in terms of negotiations and -- the possibility of talking to Putin. Is he a monster, is he a statesmen, what is he?! A dictator. And their views evolved quite quickly [but certainly over the course of the next weeks], to the point where I think by the start of summer certainly Selenskyj had decided, that - NO, it is not possible to talk to Putin.”
src: click (Simon Shuster at the Atlantic Council)
You know - that Simon Shuster:
Simon Shuster is a senior correspondent at TIME. He covers international affairs, with a focus on Russia and Ukraine.
src: click
You know - that Simon Shuster:
Amid all the pressure to root out corruption, I assumed, perhaps naively, that officials in Ukraine would think twice before taking a bribe or pocketing state funds. But when I made this point to a top presidential adviser in early October, he asked me to turn off my audio recorder so he could speak more freely. “Simon, you’re mistaken,” he says. “People are stealing like there’s no tomorrow.”
Even the firing of the Defense Minister did not make officials “feel any fear,” he adds, because the purge took too long to materialize. The President was warned in February that corruption had grown rife inside the ministry, but he dithered for more than six months, giving his allies multiple chances to deal with the problems quietly or explain them away. By the time he acted ahead of his U.S. visit, “it was too late,” says another senior presidential adviser.
[…]
Amid all the pressure to root out corruption, I assumed, perhaps naively, that officials in Ukraine would think twice before taking a bribe or pocketing state funds. But when I made this point to a top presidential adviser in early October, he asked me to turn off my audio recorder so he could speak more freely. “Simon, you’re mistaken,” he says. “People are stealing like there’s no tomorrow.”
Even the firing of the Defense Minister did not make officials “feel any fear,” he adds, because the purge took too long to materialize. The President was warned in February that corruption had grown rife inside the ministry, but he dithered for more than six months, giving his allies multiple chances to deal with the problems quietly or explain them away. By the time he acted ahead of his U.S. visit, “it was too late,” says another senior presidential adviser.
src: click
Which on October 30th 2023 was the FIRST EVER article in the english speaking establishment press, that even acknowledged, that the ukrainian offensive might not be going as planned - exactly one day before The Economist published its Interview with Zaluzhny.
3. Dmytro Kuleba on the day after Bucha:
[…] Safari by russian soldiers against human civilians, against civilians - it’s unspeakable. And I was committed even before the Bucha massacre, by the way it’s - the right spelling is butcher not bucca, I was committed to prosecuting all russian atrocities and war criminals, and to doing everything that I could as foreign minister to bring them to account, but now - uh I will be doing it until my last breath.”
src: click
So - you see, … when nobody at the time actually used the argument that it was “Butcha that was the reason why - we have to stop peace negotiations, to drive out the last russian from our country - before we can think about talks, because Butcha is how all Russian soldiers behave in Ukraine!” (or any part of that - at all). And everyone actually stated the complete opposite in public speeches on the record.
(Leaving out that little gem of a “you better dont tell the public nugget” --
https://harlekin.me/allgemein/wie-man-1000-russische-tote-aus-einer-bbc-dokumentation-raushaelt/
Which then lead to secondary lies - when ukrainians hosted a Gregor Gysi visit, where when asked about why there were so many burned out tanks in Bucha - when the Russians supposedly left “on their own” his ukrainian guide told Gysi - that those would have been “Wagner Forces”… Something no one ever said, stated, repeated, indicated, or even hinted at -- in any other instance ever - before or after. What luck for Gysi to get told something no one else has ever publicly stated, during his visit in Butcha - when he probably asked a bit too much.… (It likely was BS on part of the guide, but it left an impression on Gysi - which Claudia Major did her utmost best to instantly burry under some “yeah - but thats not even important anymore” BS - live in the Spiegel TV Interview Studio. Fun times… src: click)
While it was actually Selenskyj himself stating on the record that -
“He also said at the time, days after the Butscha massacre was discovered in early April of 2022, he suggested that Putin might not be fully aware of the warcrimes that his soldiers are committing. And we still need to talk to Putin.”
an opinion which then changed “by the start of Summer for sure” (thats 1st of April 2022 (the Bucha massacre becomes known) plus 81 days until the 21th of June (start of summer in that year)), “partly under the influence of his advisers”
over the course of the next weeks that followed, his views, evolved partly under the influence of his advisors.
src: click (Simon Shuster at the Atlantic Council)
-- that opinion, gets completely wiped from the wider public record - to just establish the OPPOSITE as being the actual reason, why Ukraine NEEDED TO BREAK OFF peace talks with russia.
Its because of Butscha, right?!
Two months ago - from me writing this now, Sabine Adler (longstanding East Europe Expert, Deutschlandfunk - und Experte dem die deutschen Medien vertrauen!), actually put this out there (at 1:20:00 in):
“Sabine Adler: Also die die Ukraine ist in Friedensgespräche gegangen, noch im Februar. [Bonus, Putin asked for them to be established on the second day of the war. Fun.] Diese Friedensgespräche haben angefangen in Gomel, da hat man sich mehrfach getroffen und die das Angebot der Ukraine durch Selenskij hat gelautet - Verzicht auf Natomitgliedschaft, Neutralität und Ausklammerung der Krim, das war also ein riesen Zugeständnis was im im Übrigen für Selenskij ein großes Risiko war, weil er gegen die eigene Verfassung verstoßen hat, in der Verfassung steht die Natoitgliedschaft als Verfassungsziel - er ist damit reingegangen, weil er dieses weitere Töten auf jeden Fall verhindern wollte. Diese Verhandlungen haben ungefähr geführt, sind gelaufen zunächst in Weißruss- in Belarus und dann in der Tat in der Türkei, dazwischen wissen Sie was Anfang April war? Butscha! Irpin! Berdjansk. All diese Geschichten waren da und da haben die Ukra da haben -- bitte das ist der
[Einwurf des Fragestellers]
Sabine Adler: Genau lassen Sie mich kurz no jetzt bin ich jetzt mal, sie wollten jetzt ihr Statement und ich wieder - ich sage jetzt etwas auf ihr Statement. Und Butscha und Irpin und all das was da deutlich geworden ist, hat für die Ukraine - es unmöglich gemacht zunächst weiter zu verhandeln das heißt also und Butscha war Anfang April und Boris Boris Johnson war Mitte oder Ende April [09th of April so eight days after Butscha] in Kiev nur mal das dazu dann hat man weiter dann hat man gesagt und und diese, diese Angebote die die ihnen gemacht hat, haben die russischen Unterhändler jeweils entgegengenommen und sie haben gesagt ja das ist etwas ganz vorsichtig vorsichtig das nehmen wir mit, das können wir mal so weitergeben - da sind sie sofort zurückgefiffen worden als sie nur diese relativ neutrale Kommentierung gemacht haben! [Yeah, the NYT states, that Putin told the head of his delegation to quickly bring the peace agreement further along at that time and not stall, and that the ukrainian delegation lead knew about that - but yeah… Why not invent absolute bullshit instead?]. Dann Ende April [9th of April] da sagen sie ist Johnson - sie verorten den sehr viel weiter früher [yeah and you 20 days later you absolut complete and utter…] war Johnson in in in Kiev und Johnson hat in der Tat gesagt er findet Verhandlungen überhaupt nicht gut. Die Verhandlungen wurden zunächst auf Eis gelegt und dann passierte im September etwas nämlich es es geschah die Einverleibung nicht nur von den sogenannten Volksrepubliken Lugansk und Donetzk in die Russische Föderation sondern auch Cherson und Saporischschja, die noch nicht mal erobert waren und sie wissen es vielleicht oder sie wissen es nicht - was einverleibt wird hat Verfassungsrang in Russland das heißt also das ist nicht irgendwas, was da beschlossen wurde und gefeiert wurde, sondern das war der damit ist der schriftliche verfassungsmäßige Auftrag diese Gebiete zu erobern, zu erobern und da hat ZelenskiJ nicht die Friedensgespräche abgebrochen sondern er hat gesagt mit Putin verhandle ich nicht mehr!”
src: click
Even there - no mention of “we need to break off the peace talks and get back all Ukrainian territories, because after Butscha, there is no way peace talks could have continued” but actually the opposite.
We will not mention for a minute that the actual order of events at the time was:
- 29th of March 2022: Presidential adviser of Selesnkyj demands “heavy weapons to drive all russians out of Ukraine” at a Conference in Istanbul
Ukrainian presidential adviser calls for heavier weaponry from the West as Russia shifts military focus
“Our partners must finally understand that the ‘Afghanization’ they want and the long-lasting exhausting conflict for Russia will not happen,” Podolyak said. “Russia will leave all Ukrainian territories except the south and east. And will try to dig in there, put in air defense and sharply reduce the loss of its equipment and personnel.”
src: click
Right around when this was happening:
After each military setback, a member of Ukraine’s negotiating team said, Mr. Putin “reduced his demands.”
src: click (NYT)
- 31st of March 2022 (before Butcha becomes known):
Atlantic Council picks up that Ukrainian demand and spreads the demand, that “the western allies now need to deliver “heavy attack weaponry”” for the first time EVER, because - and I quote “Putin will win unless the West sends Ukraine offensive weapons!”.
(Thats by the way - when peace talks were progressing “exceptionally well” -- according to the NYT)
src: click
- 1st of April: Butcha becomes known.
- 1st or 2nd of April, Selenskyj makes his speech that peace talks still need to continue (according to the NYT)
- 9th of April Bojo arrives and says “something - that sounded like “Lets Fight!” to Davyd Arakhamiia, leader of the Servant of the People faction who led the Ukrainian delegation at “peace” talks with the Russians in Belarus and Türkiye in 2022.
- 15th of April:
Similar to the month-earlier version, the April 15 draft includes text in red highlighting issues in dispute. But such markings are almost entirely absent from the treaty’s first pages, where points of agreement emerged.
Negotiators agreed that Ukraine would declare itself permanently neutral, though it would be allowed to join the European Union.
Much of the treaty would “not apply” to Crimea and another to-be-determined swath of Ukraine — meaning that Kyiv would accept Russian occupation of part of its territory without recognizing Russian sovereignty over it.
But crucial sticking points remained.
[…]
The biggest problem, however, came in Article 5. It stated that, in the event of another armed attack on Ukraine, the “guarantor states” that would sign the treaty — Great Britain, China, Russia, the United States and France — would come to Ukraine’s defense.
To the Ukrainians’ dismay, there was a crucial departure from what Ukrainian negotiators said was discussed in Istanbul. Russia inserted a clause saying that all guarantor states, including Russia, had to approve the response if Ukraine were attacked. In effect, Moscow could invade Ukraine again and then veto any military intervention on Ukraine’s behalf — a seemingly absurd condition that Kyiv quickly identified as a dealbreaker.
Russia tried to secure a veto on Ukraine’s security guarantees by inserting a clause requiring unanimous consent.
“The Guarantor States and Ukraine agree that in the event of an armed attack on Ukraine, each of the Guarantor States … on the basis of a decision agreed upon by all Guarantor States, will provide … assistance to Ukraine, as a permanently neutral state under attack…”
With that change, a member of the Ukrainian negotiating team said, “we had no interest in continuing the talks.”
src: click
SO WITH A BUNCH OF CRICIAL STICKING POINTS REMAINING - THIS IS THE POINT WHERE UKRAINIAN NEGOTIATORS DECIDED - NO, NO MORE - THAT ATTEMPT AT SLIPPING IN A VETO IS THHAAAAAA BREEEEAKING POINT! NO MORE PEACE TALKS!
THEN CHRONOLOGICALLY THIS HAPPENS:
Davyd Arakhamiia: The goal of these negotiations was to create a sense of success in the initial phase.
He said that you need to make them feel that they can talk to us. Because if you remember, in the first few months, the Russians pushed the message that the Zelensky government was illegitimate, after the Maidan, after the coup, and so on. And after the second Session it seems Putin came out on TV and said that we recognize Zelenskys government as legitimate and we will negotiate with it.
Nataliia Moseichuk: So this phase was successful.
Davyd Arakhamiia: Yeah, this was the first goal and the second goal was to buy time. So we were basically building a smokescreen.
src: click (Not rebuked to this day.)
Then the Ukraine starts attacking again. Because the weapons arrived. Being successfull in Cherson (Offensive: 27. Juli 2022 – 11. November 2022).
Then the the Ukraine starts attacking again. being VERY successfull in Charkiew (6. September 2022 – 2. Oktober 2022).
Then on 30th of September 2022 Putin declares Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts annexed.
And then Selenskyj still doesnt officially break off the peace negotiations, they just continue ghosting every meeting of it since the end of April, so Selenskyj can remain “the PEACE president” - in all of fucking public dialog in german media. HORRAY HORRAY. --
Sorry - we forget all of that of course --
and still believe, that the Ukraine
HAD TO STOP NEGOTIATIONS, BECAUSE THEY SAW HOW THE RUSSIAN SOLDIER BEHAVED IN HIS NATURAL HABITAT IN BUTCHA! WHICH IS A BLUEPRINT FOR HOW THE RUSSIAN BEHAVES IN THE ENTIRETY OF UKRAINE! -
Even though Selenskyj stated this - after Butscha -
“He also said at the time, days after the Butscha massacre was discovered in early April of 2022, he suggested that Putin might not be fully aware of the warcrimes that his soldiers are committing. And we still need to talk to Putin.
src: click (Simon Shuster at the Atlantic Council)
And it took the ukrainian propaganda department until the start of summer (thats 81 days after Butscha) for the public messaging to change.
Even though - 14 days after Butcha (15th of April), the Ukrianian delegation knew that it didnt want to continue negotiations, because of Russias demand for a veto, which was the ACTUAL dealbreaker (new western Propaganda line, why not…)
Even though Davyd Arakhamiia clearly stated
Davyd Arakhamiia: Yeah, this was the first goal and the second goal was to buy time. So we were basically building a smokescreen.
src: click (Not rebuked to this day.)
Even though Selenskyj still didnt break off Peace talks “officially” after on 30th of September 2022 Putin declares Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts annexed.
Quote:
Und dann passierte im September etwas nämlich es es geschah die Einverleibung nicht nur von den sogenannten Volksrepubliken Lugansk und Donetzk in die Russische Föderation sondern auch Cherson und Saporischschja, die noch nicht mal erobert waren und sie wissen es vielleicht oder sie wissen es nicht - was einverleibt wird hat Verfassungsrang in Russland das heißt also das ist nicht irgendwas, was da beschlossen wurde und gefeiert wurde, sondern das war der damit ist der schriftliche verfassungsmäßige Auftrag diese Gebiete zu erobern, zu erobern und da hat ZelenskiJ nicht die Friedensgespräche abgebrochen sondern er hat gesagt mit Putin verhandle ich nicht mehr!”
src: click
(Sabine Adler longstanding East Europe Expert, Deutschlandfunk on the 5th of April 2024)
AND YOU FUCKING BELIEVE THIS?!
YOU FUCKING ASSININE FUCKING IDIOTS,
YOU --
Diese Gesellschaft ist das absolut grotesk und abartigst ALLERLETZTE.
And the bonus lie always was, that Ukraine did this, because it couldnt bare seeing the Russian army behaving everywhere else just like they did in Butcha, where the Ukrainian Army killed two entire battalions (1000 russian soldiers) using HIMARS from a forest patch nearby first -- causing the russians to go crazy. According to an assessment of Markus Reisner - of course not in normal prime Time Television --- no, we keep that information for our “bellum justum - Impulsvortrag Oberst Markus Reisner zum Krieg in der Ukraine at the “Plattform Christdemokratie”” of course.
YOU FUCKS.
And then we treat everyone who knows that - like an absolute fucking Putin apologist, tool, idiot, leper, …
BECAUSE YOU FUCKING ATE UP THAT PROPAGANDA LIKE A FUCKING KIPFERL AT BREAKFAST - you utter, utter, scumm.
Achja, und da Kaiser Franz Joseph is ja in den Krieg - weil sie seinen Sohn getötet haben - net woa?
Great to finally get a grasp on the wider publics - utter, utter intelligence.
Gut, Propaganda hat jetzt aber leider wieder niemand entdeckt.
Und die Geschichte mit den signalenden US (“US and NATO officials struggle to decipher the status of peace negotiations between Russia and Ukraine”), die am 20. März 2022 “plötzlich nicht mehr gewusst haben wo die Ukraine steht” (hatte da doch der Präsident Selensky verlautbart eine “neutrale Ukraine” sei etwas worüber er nachdenke), worauf am selben Tag (!) der ehemalige ukrainische Verteidigungsminister Zagorodnyuk, jetzt Atlantic Council Mitglied, bei Times Radio vorsprechen und die ukrainische Position erläutern musste:
(15 mal “Cant trust Putin!” in 5 Sätzen!)
- die erspar ich dem Leser lieber auch noch.
