Deutschsprachiger Medien!
Wir von den deutschsprachigen Medien wissen ja nicht was im Vertrag steht.
Wir von den deutschsprachigen Medien wissen ja nicht was das überhaupt soll.
Wir von den deutschsprachigen Medien haben ja nur die letzte Seite gesehen.
Gut da gabs Truppenaufstellungen, aber das kann ja alles bedeuten.
Und wenn wir das regierungsfinanzierte DW sind, vergessen wir damals im Beitrag schon mal überhaupt zu erwähnen, was Putin da in die Kamera hält. Auch wenn wirs fast 15 Sekunden lang zeigen…
Enter Ukrainska Pravda:
Head of Ukraine’s leading party claims Russia proposed “peace” in exchange for neutrality
OLENA ROSHCHINA — FRIDAY, 24 NOVEMBER 2023, 22:51Davyd Arakhamiia, leader of the Servant of the People faction who led the Ukrainian delegation at “peace” talks with the Russians in Belarus and Türkiye in 2022, said that the Russian delegation promised Kyiv peace in exchange for refusing to join NATO, but the Ukrainians did not believe them.
src: click
Thats the fluff version.
Here is the in depth one:
[Auto generated subtitles translated by youtube and ChatGPT 3.5 - both used to create the final version of this transcript.]
Nataliia Moseichuk: What were they willing to do if they leave all these things here…
Davyd Arakhamiia: We need to understand, in words they were willing to do a lot of things in words we understood, that everyone has their own game, each side has their own game, well so this game directly dependeds on successes or failures on the front. Well in words they said that - everything. We are going home where you were, there - take it all and then in detail, that we will wait until you accept everything, because we can understand how you act. You will sign something and then we will leave, you will say that it is a shameful matter and do nothing - and they always blamed you for not fulfilling this Minsk agreement. You signed and ratified it, but you don’t implement it and despite the presence of international guarantees, it doesn’t work so we can talk to you, but only when tanks are standing outside the parliament. Conditionally.
Nataliia Moseichuk: And look, Putin showed a document - and during the negotiations with the African delegation, he demonstrated it, claiming that it was a draft of a peaceful agreement with Ukraine. And supposedly, this document was created in Istanbul. This document was called the agreement on Ukraine’s permanent neutrality and security guarantees. Putin said that there were 18 articles, and I quote “everything was specified, from military equipment to the personnel of the Ukrainian armed forces”. He said that there was the signature of the head of the delegation, so Putin claimed. Why didn’t he make this document public?
Davyd Arakhamiia: You paid attention. [GERMAN SPEAKING MEDIA ANYONE? SOMEONE WANT TO PITCH IN HERE? MAYBE?] Why do you think that if he had the document, he would have made it public?
Nataliia Moseichuk: The goal of the Ukrainian delegation was to delay the process, while the goal of the Russian delegation was…?
Davyd Arakhamiia: The goal of the Russian delegation in my opinion was to show that they really, really hoped until almost the end that they would pressure us to sign the agreement so that we would take neutrality. This was the biggest thing for them, for them to be ready to end the war. If we, let’s take Finland as an example, they once had neutrality and made a commitment that they will not join NATO. Except for one point, well actually the key point was this -- everything else there was cosmetic political seasonings like denazification of the Russian-speaking population and blah-blah-blah.
Nataliia Moseichuk: Why did Ukraine not agree to this point?
Davyd Arakhamiia: Well first of all in order to agree to this point, you need to change the constitution, our path to NATO is written in the Constitution. Secondly there is no trust and there was no trust that the Russians would do it. This could only be done if there were security guarantees. [Naftali Bennett saw that differently.] Well, we couldn’t just sign something - and then they would have retreated and everyone would have taken a breath and then they would have come back more prepared - because they actually entered unprepared [! ah, unprepared AND unprovoked! Great!], yes, to such resistance. Therefore this could only work when there is a hundred percent certainty, that this will not happen again. And there is no such certainty anymore.
Moreover, when we returned from Istanbul, Boris Johnson came to Kyiv and said that we would not sign anything with them at all and “let’s just fight”.
Nataliia Moseichuk: Am I understanding correctly that the arrival of Boris Johnson was like a fire truck that flew in already? When I say this - its coming not from myself, I say it on behalf of those people who are currently opposing the political power in Ukraine, from internal people who said that you could already have signed these treacherous agreements on the neutral status of Ukraine, but as soon as Johnson arrived, he said “no agreements at all”?
Davyd Arakhamiia: Thats what only people who want to twist any event there say in political [not audible, but only one word] - in order for us to be able to sign, look - no, I couldn’t sign it, nor any member of the delegation. We don’t even have the legal right to sign anything, right? So, it would only theoretically be possible, if there was a meeting between Zelensky and Putin, theoretically sign something afterwards. Then it would have to be ratified in parliament. So when people say this, they are only saying it to an unprepared reader or viewer or listener.
Nataliia Moseichuk: How much was this process, Belarus and Istanbul, to what extent was this process influenced by Washington, London, Warsaw, by Berlin…
Davyd Arakhamiia: Not at all. It was not controlled, but it was done by agreement, so they understood that we had a group immediately created, a group of security advisors of these countries, our partners, but we gave them information in a measured way - from a legal point of view, a little bit of information so that it would not spill out -- you see that everything went discreetly, because what we were doing was dosing it. So they knew everything, especially when we were drafting some documents, they had access to all documents and we consulted with them of course, because we understood that we could not win the war ourselves so we definitely need them. They were happy to consult with us and they actually and advised us not to go with any ephemeral security guarantees, that could not be given at that time at all, and they say, it’s just an attempt to somehow claim that we successfully accomplished it. I believe that if on a ten-point scale, eight points, we definitely succeeded. So we did it in such a way that they went with it, they relaxed a little, and then everything shifted completely in the military direction.
Ah, what a relief to hear that, isnt it?
REMEMBER THE IMPORTANCE OF BUTCHA?! Thats Butcher and not Bucca? Remember when the BBC forget to mention 1000 Russian soldiers killed in their documentary?
Diese Gesellschaft ist das absolut grotesk und abartigst Allerletzte.
Daraus ergeben sich mindestens fünf Lügen die alle deutschsprachigen Qualitätsmedien zu Kriegsbeginn propagiert haben. Nur damit wir uns verstehen.
Bonus: NATO at this stage of course was not involved in no way at all, an’ this is NOT a proxy war:
Davyd Arakhamiia: And he [Lukashenko] then said that we will not fight with Ukraine, he said. He can’t. He honestly said, I can’t [not] allow them to use my infrastructure and not cross the border of Ukraine through Belarus, or launch missiles, but I guarantee that no Belarusian soldier will cross the border of Ukraine. We didn’t believe it and there were many provocations that were thrown at us, some heavy ones said that disguised Belarusian soldiers were fighting, but then -
Nataliia Moseichuk: It was never confirmed.
Davyd Arakhamiia: Well, you have to give credit where credit is due, the word of Grygorovych still holds. He demanded something from Ukraine, he didn’t demand anything at all, he offered his services as a mediator. He then we agreed to meet at the Belarus-Ukraine border, we agreed to meet in the Bialowieza Forest, yes, he said, this is my Fazenda or something, he has hunting estates there. And he says come there and we went.
Well, the logistics were so difficult. We went by train first to Poland, then from Poland we boarded these Blackhawk NATO helicopters to a military base in Belarus. It seems that it was one of only a few times when NATO helicopters landed on the territory of Belarus… And then transferred to Belarusian military helicopters and then landed there.
They were nervous, Lukashenko gave each member of the delegation two or three bodyguards. So there were three times more bodyguards than negotiators.
The goal of these negotiations was to create a sense of success in the initial phase.
He said that you need to make them feel that they can talk to us. Because if you remember, in the first few months, the Russians pushed the message that the Zelensky government was illegitimate, after the Maidan, after the coup, and so on. And after the second Session it seems Putin came out on TV and said that we recognize Zelenskys government as legitimate and we will negotiate with it.
Nataliia Moseichuk: So this phase was successful.
Davyd Arakhamiia: Yeah, this was the first goal and the second goal was to buy time. So we were basically building a smokescreen.
Ah, the good old, board some polish NATO Blackhawks to fly into Belarus for your first discussions with the Russian delegation move.
Not a proxy war at all! NATO? What NATO? This was a logistics problem, you see - one that only could be overcome by first riding into Poland, then boarding NATO black hawk helicopters, and then…
Well, then the CIA and the MI6 had to create their own departments within the ukrainian secret sevice of course. And then the Ukraine had to create a war consultancy panel filled with NATO experts to consult with, even before any negotiations, and then…
All of the military equipment had to come from the west of course.. But proxy war? Which proxy war?
Diese Gesellschaft ist das absolut grotesk und abartigst Allerletzte.
edit: ChatGPT 3.5 translated autogenerated subtitles, use them in combination with the google auto translated ones to have a second translated version:
Oh, and by the way - all of this is ukrainian “Lets not hold elections this year! marketing.”
Why? Presentation, presentation, presentation.
Lets instruct a child to thumbs up:
Das ist was die Ukraine zu Gesicht bekommt, während der Standard die Österreicher mit “größter russischer Raketenangriff bisher überhaupt” zuscheisst, damit sie mehr Geld geben.
Damit die Ukrainer dann auf den zweiten eingestreuten Gesprächspunkt [den im Intro gefeaturten Hauptgesprächspunkt] besser reagieren…
Diese Gesellschaft ist das absolut grotesk und abartigst Allerletzte.
edit: Es gibt aber natürlich auch wieder gute Nachrichten. Am selben Tag:
Keine Angst, ist nur ZDF heute, die haben eine Trefferquote von “auch ein blindes Huhn.…”.
edit: Kontext:
