20th of June 2024 (Nicht vom Trump thumbnail schocken lassen. :), Kurt Volker war ehemaliger U.S. Special Representative for Ukraine und U.S. Ambassador to NATO in 2008-2009):
Kurt Volker: “Almost all of the Allies leave aside Germany, the US and Hungary, all of the other allies support an invitation for Ukraine to join NATO at the Washington Summit, be an invitation to start accession talks. This is what was in the Rasmusen/Jermak working group paper which I was a part of recommending this approach for NATO, but the US is not in favor of that right now, the Biden Administration is not, nor is Germany - and of course Hungary is a special case we don’t have to go into that. Um but he [Biden, when publicly stating (against US policy) the Ukraine should not be part of Nato] was probably thinking about the pressure that they’re under now. But in my view and again this is just me I’m a private citizen I’m not representing the US government but I don’t see a way that you have a permanent peace in Europe - let alone Ukraine, but a permanent peace in Europe unless Ukraine is a part of NATO. We have to have clear lines, we have to have an absence of gray zones where Putin is tempted to start a war - uh we have to bring Ukraine into NATO as part of the strategy for restoring peace in Europe.”
Context:
Alina Polyakova (President and CEO of the Center for European Policy Analysis (CEPA): I think that signals to me that there is growing agreement that the only way that we can manage Russia is by going back to the Cold War era strategy of containment, that begins first, defeating Russia in Ukraine and second, reestablishing deterance by denial in Europe that means hardening the Eastern flank first and foremost. Third hardening the soft targets of Russian influence across the globe - uh influence operations in the information space, cyber operations that the Russians have become very sophisticated at, pushing back against Russia’s use of PMC’s [private military contractors] to prop up authoritarian governments across the globe and undermine democratic leadership - and fourth, undermining Russian dominance in its former empire, because as long as we have so-called grey zone States a horrible term but, non-allied states that are not part of NATO that are not part of the EU in the European continentthis is what provides fodder for Russian aggression so Moldova is very much under threat as we speak, certainly Bellarus has already become a vassel state of Russia and then we have of course Georgia and the other countries of the Caucasus as well.
[…]
And Russia will come back for NATO.
Hanno Pevkur, Minister of Defence of the Republic of Estonia (30.05.2023):
“What Russia wants to achieve, the political goals, let’s be honest - and they, these political goals of Russia have never changed, they want to have a grey-zone between Russia and NATO, they want to have a control over this grey-zone and this is what they want to achieve. And they want to have some “security guarantees” for themselves, sorry this is not the Free World and this is what Ukraine is fighting for at the moment, that they are fighting for - the Free World and rule-based world and this is why we support Ukraine so this is obvious and then this is why we can never accept this approach of Russia, looking at international law.”
See: [Great and impartial] Friends of Ukraine Roundtable #2
Vlad Vexler of course also widely known for publicaly ridiculing Chomsky -
[Only legit, with great and impartial blue skies over yellow sunflowerfield background.]
Because Chomsky stated that Selenskyj was open to peace negotiations, which obviously wasnt true because according to Vlad Vexler Selenskyj was fighting for the mere survival of Ukraine. Except that it was. (See NYT as of June 15th 2024).
With Vlad Vexler you then get presented this in this way:
Putin’s actions are destroying Russia’s future and increasingly odds that Russia may not exist at all and there isn’t even a more striking Omission in that argument and that is - Ukrainian agency since 2014! Ukraine has come together in a Civic Bond powered by anti-colonial sentiment and it’s only an ungrounded newspaper clipping approach to political understanding that could lead Norm Chomsky to say that Ukraine wants peace more than weapons.
For reference, the Interview Vlad Vexler quotes Chomsky from (and underlies with sinister music) was held in May 2022 - when according to Simon Shuster - you know - that Simon Shuster:
Simon Shuster is a senior correspondent at TIME. He covers international affairs, with a focus on Russia and Ukraine.
Selenkyjs view still was that the Ukraine needed to talk to Putin - to prevent a wider war.
“He also said at the time, days after the Butscha massacre was discovered in early April of 2022, he suggested that Putin might not be fully aware of the warcrimes that his soldiers are committing. And we still need to talk to Putin.
Quite quickly, but certainly over the course of the next weeks that followed, his views, evolved partly under the influence of his advisors. You know this is -- like any administration there are different opinions, and they were discussing what to do, what should be our position in terms of negotiations and -- the possibility of talking to Putin. Is he a monster, is he a statesmen, what is he?! A dictator. And their views evolved quite quickly [but certainly over the course of the next weeks], to the point where I think by the start of summer certainly Selenskyj had decided, that - NO, it is not possible to talk to Putin. (and thats 81 days after Butscha, which became known on April the 1st 2022.)”
src: click (Simon Shuster at the Atlantic Council)
Where at 3min20 in there exists this wonderful passage:
Sprecher: “Seit der Besetzung der Krim 2014 bittet die Ukraine die USA ihr Javelin Panzer-Abwehrraketen zu liefern. Präsident Obama lehnt zuerst ab, weil er eine Eskalation der Spannungen mit Russland befürchtet. Nun [20.06.2017] legt Poroschenenko Trump seinen Wunsch vor.”
[Context: This was the aformentioned “wish” in November of 2019, six months after the Poroschenko presidency, in the early stages of the Selenskyj presidency:
24.11.2019
The aid, including counter-artillery battery radar, night-vision gear and patrol boats, has since [in the later parts of the Trump administration] been unfrozen and is making a real difference to Ukrainian forces fighting Russian-backed separatists in eastern districts.
But it is the Javelin which appears to be a game-changer, Ukraine’s defence minister told CBC News.
“In certain areas, they can make a critical difference,” said Andriy Zagorodnyuk.
Fiona Hill: “Poroschenko schwitzte buchstäblich und wirkte sehr nervös. ich erinnere mich genau an seinen Gesichtsausdruck als er hereinkam - er war sehr beklommen denn für ihn stand viel auf dem Spiel.”
Poroschenko: “Damals gab es bereits die russische Besatzung. Die Krim war besetzt und der Donbas war besetzt.”
H. R. McMaster (National Security Advisor, Trump): “Der Präsident nahm Poroschenko sehr freundlich auf. Er war ein erfolgreicher Geschäftsmann genau wie Trump und auf der Ebene verstanden sie sich.”
Poroschenko: “Ich sagte: Mr President wir brauchen tödliche Waffen. Javelin ist eine sehr wirksame Panzerabwehrrakete.”
H. R. McMaster: “Präsident Poroschenko gelang es Trump die Auswirkungen der russischen Besatzung auf die Ukraine darzulegen. Präsident Trump erkannte die Bedrohung und die Notwendigkeit der Abschreckung”
Poroschenko: “Als ich das Oval Office verließ, war ich wie beflügelt, denn Präsident Trump hatte mir das Javelin System zugesagt. Das war ein großartiger Tag.”
Sprecher: “Doch die Realität sieht anders aus. Als er zwei Wochen später zum G20 Gipfel anreist, hat Trump den Vertrag noch immer nicht unterzeichnet hier soll er Putin erstmals persönlich begegnen.”
Fiona Hill: “Wir erhielten Hinweise von der russischen Delegation, dass Präsident Putin Waffenlieferungen an die Ukraine, vor allem Javelin Raketen sehr kritisch sehen würde.”
John Kelly (Secretary of Homeland Security, Trump): “Der Präsident war sich der Tatsache bewusst dass eine Unterstützung der Ukraine Russland verärgern würde und er wollte wohl oder übel gute Beziehungen zu Putin aufbauen.”
John Kelly: “Trump hegte die trügerische Hoffnung gute persönliche Beziehungen zu Putin seine Haltung mäßigen würden.”
Sprecher: “Das nationale Sicherheitsteam versucht Trump zu überzeugen sein Versprechen an Poroschenko zu halten.”
John Kelly: “Ich machte klar, solange es keinen Angriff gegen die Souveränität der Ukraine gab, werde kein russischer Panzer von Javelin Raketen getroffen und auch kein russischer Soldat von Munition aus den USA.”
H. R. McMaster: “Mein Argument war dass Schwäche Russland provoziert ich glaube Russland hat die Ukraine 2014 angegriffen weil Putin glaubte die Amerikaner würden ohnehin nicht reagieren, deswegen war es wichtig die Verteidigungsfähigkeit der Ukraine die Abschreckung zu stärken. Trump stimmte zu.”
Sprecher: “Ende 2017 gibt Trump den Befehl zur Lieferung tödlicher Waffen [Javelins, the Gamechanger in the Donbas] an die Ukraine.”
Andrej Kelin (former Ambasador of the Russian Federation to the UK): “Aus unserer Sicht hatte Trump mit dieser Entscheidung eine rote Linie überschritten, er wurde dazu überredet Javelin Raketen zu liefern und das war nur der Anfang der Aufrüstung der Ukraine. Der Anfang eines sehr gefährlichen Wegs.”
John Bolton (National Security Advisor): “Putin betrachteten die Lieferung schwerer Waffen an die Ukraine als Bedrohung. Er hielt die Ukraine für ein illegales Staatsgebilde das der Sowjetunion dass Russland zu Unrecht entrissen worden war. Der Zerfall der Sowjetunion war für Putin die größte geopolitische Katastrophe des 20 Jahrhunderts.”
Chomsky of course being the intellectual that then promptly finds out through literary analysis - and promptly also makes public - that this concession -
John Kelly: “Ich machte klar, solange es keinen Angriff gegen die Souveränität der Ukraine gab, werde kein russischer Panzer von jevelin Raketen getroffen und auch kein russischer Soldat von Munition aus den USA.”
- was violated by Ukraine in November of 2021 (or slightly earlier), trying to free the Donbas - referencing this article:
Ukrainian Troops Have Been Firing American-Made Javelin Missiles At Russian-Backed Forces
The disclosure that Ukrainian troops have been employing Javelin missiles in combat comes as fears grow that Russian could launch a new invasion.
JOSEPHTREVITHICK
POSTEDONNOV 22, 2021 6:18 PMEST
The head of Ukraine’s top military intelligence agency has confirmed, for what appears to be the first time, that Ukrainian troops in the country’s eastern Donbass region have fired American-made Javelin anti-tank missiles at Russian or Russian-supported forces. These missiles, along with other advanced weapons that the Ukrainian military has acquired in recent years, such as Turkish Bayraktar TB2 armed drones, would be important factors in the outcome of any future major military confrontation with Russia. Fears are growing that the Kremlin could at least be prepared to launch a new, large-scale invasion of eastern Ukraine as early as January.
Ukrainian Brigadier General Kyrylo Budanov talked about the operational use of Javelins as part of a recent interview with Military Times, which he conducted through an interpreter. Budanov, who runs the Chief Directorate of Intelligence of the Ministry of Defence of Ukraine, also known by its Ukrainian acronym GURMOU, used the opportunity to call for more help from the U.S. government as he sounded like the alarm about the Kremlin’s unusual deployments of large numbers of military units to areas opposite Russia’s borders with Ukraine in recent weeks.
The second big deployment of russian army units on the ukrainian border happens from Oktober to mid November 2021. US delivered Javelins were likely used in Donbas, by the Ukraine, starting from October 2021.
The US then promptly covers this up and two months later allows the Ukraine to distribute Javelins throughout Ukraine more freely - and use them - even without an official Russian invasion being underway (but that was a change from their previous position, that was only implemented in december of 2021):
04. 12. 2021 (Politico) - Can Ukraine deploy U.S.-made weapons against the Russians?
There are no geographic restrictions on the deployment of the missiles, which means Ukrainian forces can transport, distribute and use them any time.
As Russia amasses the highest number of troops on Ukraine’s border since 2014, the question for Kyiv now becomes: Is it time to start putting U.S.-made weapons in the field?
Ukraine purchased 210 Javelin anti-tank missiles and 37 launchers from the U.S. in 2018 for approximately $47 million, and the State Department approved the sale of a second batch of 150 missiles and 10 launch units in late 2019. But with them came a variety of restrictions on their usage, including that they be stored in western Ukraine, far from the front lines.
The Javelin is a shoulder-fired missile that uses infrared guidance to target and destroy an enemy tank from up to 3 miles away. Former President Donald Trump first approved the sale of the weapon to Ukraine after his predecessor, former President Barack Obama, refused the request, due to fears that providing lethal aid to Kyiv would provoke Moscow.
Wess Mitchell, who served as the Trump administration’s top State Department official overseeing European and Eurasian affairs, noted that the Javelins and other lethal weapons are designed not for first use but to deter Moscow from encroaching on Ukrainian territory.
But while Washington urges Kyiv to use the Javelins only for defensive purposes and requires that the weapons be stored in a secure facility away from the conflict, there are no geographic restrictions on the actual deployment of the missiles, U.S. officials said, which means that Ukrainian forces can transport, distribute and use them at any time.
“Javelins are defensive weapons and the United States expects Ukraine to deploy them responsibly and strategically when needed for defensive purposes,” said Pentagon spokesperson Mike Howard.
If the Javelins were to be moved, it doesn’t necessarily mean they’d be used — in Kyiv’s estimation, the threshold for actually firing the weapons has not yet been met, according to two Ukrainians familiar with the discussions. The red line, they said, would be if Russian tanks crossed over into Ukrainian territory.
The current Russian movement in Eastern Europe is exactly the kind of scenario the Javelin sale was designed to counter, said two former senior U.S. defense officials familiar with the agreement.
But while Washington urges Kyiv to use the Javelins only for defensive purposes and requires that the weapons be stored in a secure facility away from the conflict
- but also this was in play at that time:
John Kelly: “Ich machte klar, solange es keinen Angriff gegen die Souveränität der Ukraine gab, werde kein russischer Panzer von jevelin Raketen getroffen und auch kein russischer Soldat von Munition aus den USA.”
So ARTE of course doesnt catch this. But Chomsky does.
So then he gets publicly character assassinated by Vlad Vexler, whom ARTE then also promptly features in their “Truth and Propaganda” Documentary.
As that doesnt work, Chomsky now really gets on the US Propaganda shitlist, getting essentially the shouting down by an idiot treatment - by a Radio Free Europe/Radio liberty employee:
You know - Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, the only us american broadcaster that is publicly funded by the US government and strangely enough is only broadcasting abroad - but in the past months, also strangely enough finally had secured enough funding to also expand to romania:
22th of June 2024 here at 24 min in:
Jamie Fly (Former Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty CEO):
“I think it’s important uh context, historical context for the US Romanian relationship, when I was president of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, we returned uh to Romania, relaunched our Romanian language service - I had many occasions where I was able to visit uh Bucharest and the thing I think Americans need to understand is Romanians LOVE Freedom uh and it’s uh now in their uh DNA uh and that was an important bond given the work of Radio Free Europe uh during the Communist era, and it was - I had this experience in many countries I operated in, but Romania was perhaps the most fervent. When I went to Romania as president of Radio Free Europe, people would describe to me with tears in their eyes the role that American Broadcasting played during a very dark uh period and uh were always asking us to do more there and I was excited that we were able to to return during my tenure um so and I think that relates to why Romania [!] now has staked out such a clear leadership role uh in the region,advancing uh the values that uh us programming certainly represented during that time so it’s it’s great to be uh with you, so maybe I’ll start broadly just with the state of the US Romania uh relationship which you kind of touched on at the end but I was struck by your note that US engagement needs to be basically reliable, predictable and not to get partisan or - not to say make you say anything too undiplomatic but um the US is always distracted uh and even though the US is very engaged uh in support of Ukraine right now, China is uh a growing challenge drawing attention.”
So then Chomsky and I get a stroke.
Chomsky for real, and recovering:
Noam Chomsky Leaves Hospital After Suffering Stroke
The world-renowned linguist and dissident Noam Chomsky was discharged from a São Paulo hospital in Brazil on Tuesday as he continues to recover from a stroke last year that impacted his ability to speak. His wife Valeria recently told a newspaper in Brazil that the 95-year-old Chomsky still follows the news and raises his left arm in anger when he sees images of Israel’s war on Gaza. False reports that Chomsky had died went viral online on Tuesday.
The University Vienna is currently booking the full ukrainian “Art and Propaganda” package (they actually will organize everything, you just book them via your local embassy) for its students, to make sure all minds are primed to think the right way, and everyone still claps, when
good old, not at all political propagandist Maria Mezentseva from great Servant of the People party -
tells your average austrian university audience, that - quote:
“The peace formula which president Selenskyj initiated already in 2022, you know already the amount of the warcrimes, according to the prosecutor general office and the data we are getting weekly - we are talking about 130.000 registered warcrimes. And it means not only you know damaged properties or unfortunately related sexual violence crime. Amongst victims, by the way there are children, boys and girls - which is absolutely devastating.
And this proves to us, that only in unified efforts we can defeat the Evil. The Evil which influenced our energy system - our common food security. Our daily life. Our peace. On the subcontinent of Europe. And affected the project which europeans have been building for 75 years.
I truly believe that only together, “alles zusammen”, only like this we can defeat, the highest crime, which is the crime of aggression, by establishing international tribunal for this particular crime. Because everything we are talking about in terms of war crimes, daily committed by russian army - this has a beginning, and it began with the first invasion into Ukraine in 2014. Invasion into Georgia in 2008. In the nineties this was Moldova - we dont want this list to continue.
Therefore I highly salute also the decision of the austrian govenrment to join this special register for warcrimes, where Ukrainians - the victims, can receive for material and non material losses the compensations. And this is extremely important friends, because we are all united in the understanding, that russia has to pay. Not austrian tax payers! Not french colleagues, not Germans, not australians, or americans - but russian funds and frozen assets should serve that purpose.
Thank you very much, for bringing this issue via photographs, via images of ukrainian daily life - and thank you very much for activities of your embassy - here in Kiev and elsewere in the regions, also in my home city Charkiew, which itself and the region of Charkiew is under daily shelling, thats why we call for more support for civilians. It means air defense, you know - that this is not directly lets say an address to Austria, but also to many, many allies - where Austria helps us to lobby this important issues to protect energy infrastructure, to education facilities -- so finally children in Charkiew will come up from underground schools in metro stations, and be able to study offline.
Dear friends, I’m sure todays evening will bring you a little bit closer to the emotions we feel daily. I salute you from the capitol Kiev, where we continue to conduct our parliamentary session, I want to thank the ambassador, and I want to thank of course to the organizers, und Vielen Dank für Universität and all the guests who have gathered today.
I promise to practice my german more and next time to conduct my speech in german.
Noch einmal vielen Dank für alles - sie machen für unsere Leuten und Kinder. So about children, and that would be my last -- uhmn red line.
Thank you so much for supporting the initiative to bring kids back, the civilians and war prisonors who are kept since 2014 by russia illegaly -- is devastating. The children stories are even more devastating.
I would like to thank you for raising the voice for this 19.000 children who are kept in russia and in Belarus illegally.
Thank you for supporting this initiatives to bring this childrens back. I’m sure the number of 500 of them who already returned back home will increase, but we should make it together with responsible organizations like UN and ICRC.
Noch einmal vielen Dank, it was a big honor to speak in front of you.”
Just your usual, very normal photoart-agent for a brother and sister duo organizing a photo exhibition in the University of Vienna, I’d say.
Propaganda (weniger Inhalt, aber FORM!) hat ja wieder niemand entdeckt.
Am Allerwenigsten das gesamte versammelte Rektorat.
Ich stell mir da jetzt vor, wie das ein Jus, oder ein IR Professor in ner Vorlesung aufarbeitet - ohne über den Propaganda Anteil zu stolpern…
Das schafft auch nur mehr ein gelernter Österreicher.
edit: Oh großartige Neuigkeiten! Die Österreichisch Ukrainische Gesellschaft hat ein Buch zum Selbstkostenpreis herausgebracht, das bereits in den Oberstufen von österreichischen Gymnasien verteilt und behandelt wird! Manchmal hat man aber auch einfach Glück als neuer Schulbuchverlag…
edit2: Auch wunderschön: “Herr Prosecutor General, ich weiß nicht ob sie noch zwei Minuten haben, aber wie sehen sie eigentlich ihre Rolle in der Ukrainischen Gesellschaft, mehr so “emotional stabilisierend”, oder --?” “Yes thank you for this very important question. We have 10 more minutes. I will try to answer important question.” -- then the Prosecutor General starts reading the answer from the screen in front of him… (Eye movement.)
Gut werden sie an dieser Stelle sagen - dann ist es eigentlich an der Zeit nochmal vier Jahre Krieg im Detail zu planen - nicht?
Danke Gustav - übernimm du dich mal - ehm, sorry, übernimm du das mal.
Formerly the rulers were the leaders. They laid out the course of history, by the simple process of doing what they wanted. And if nowadays the successors of the rulers, those whose position or ability gives them power, can no longer do what they want without the approval of the masses, they find in propaganda a tool which is increasingly powerful in gaining that approval. Therefore, propaganda is here to stay.
It was, of course, the astounding success of propaganda during the war that opened the eyes of the intelligent few in all departments of life to the possibilities of regimenting the public mind. The American government and numerous patriotic agencies developed a technique which, to most persons accustomed to bidding for public acceptance, was new. They not only appealed to the individual by means of every approach-visual, graphic, and auditory-to support the national endeavor, but they also secured the cooperation of the key men in every group -persons whose mere word carried authority to hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands of followers. They thus automatically gained the support of fraternal, religious, commercial, patriotic, social and local groups whose members took their opinions from their accustomed leaders and spokesmen, or from the periodical publications which they were accustomed to read and believe.At the same time, the manipulators of patriotic opinion made use of the mental cliches and the emotional habits of the public to produce mass reactions against the alleged atrocities, the terror and the tyranny of the enemy. It was only natural, after the war ended, that intelligent persons should ask themselves whether it was not possible to apply a similar technique to the problems of peace.
(Propaganda - Edward Bernays, 1928, Liverlight, first edition, Chapter II - The new Propaganda)
Gut, Propaganda hat natürlich wieder niemand entdeckt.
So - we need to get back all Ukrainian territories, because after Butscha, there is no way the peace talks could have continued. Right?
Sure, if you like to hold on to your self delusions and fairytales…
So…
1.
But Mr. Zelensky, visiting Bucha on April 4, said the talks would go on, even as Russia dismissed the Bucha atrocities as a staged “provocation.”
“He also said at the time, days after the Butscha massacre was discovered in early April of 2022, he suggested that Putin might not be fully aware of the warcrimes that his soldiers are committing. And we still need to talk to Putin.
Quite quickly, but certainly over the course of the next weeks that followed, his views, evolved partly under the influence of his advisors. You know this is -- like any administration there are different opinions, and they were discussing what to do, what should be our position in terms of negotiations and -- the possibility of talking to Putin. Is he a monster, is he a statesmen, what is he?! A dictator. And their views evolved quite quickly [but certainly over the course of the next weeks], to the point where I think by the start of summer certainly Selenskyj had decided, that - NO, it is not possible to talk to Putin.”
src: click (Simon Shuster at the Atlantic Council)
You know - that Simon Shuster:
Simon Shuster is a senior correspondent at TIME. He covers international affairs, with a focus on Russia and Ukraine.
Amid all the pressure to root out corruption, I assumed, perhaps naively, that officials in Ukraine would think twice before taking a bribe or pocketing state funds. But when I made this point to a top presidential adviser in early October, he asked me to turn off my audio recorder so he could speak more freely. “Simon, you’re mistaken,” he says. “People are stealing like there’s no tomorrow.”
Even the firing of the Defense Minister did not make officials “feel any fear,” he adds, because the purge took too long to materialize. The President was warned in February that corruption had grown rife inside the ministry, but he dithered for more than six months, giving his allies multiple chances to deal with the problems quietly or explain them away. By the time he acted ahead of his U.S. visit, “it was too late,” says another senior presidential adviser.
[…]
Amid all the pressure to root out corruption, I assumed, perhaps naively, that officials in Ukraine would think twice before taking a bribe or pocketing state funds. But when I made this point to a top presidential adviser in early October, he asked me to turn off my audio recorder so he could speak more freely. “Simon, you’re mistaken,” he says. “People are stealing like there’s no tomorrow.”
Even the firing of the Defense Minister did not make officials “feel any fear,” he adds, because the purge took too long to materialize. The President was warned in February that corruption had grown rife inside the ministry, but he dithered for more than six months, giving his allies multiple chances to deal with the problems quietly or explain them away. By the time he acted ahead of his U.S. visit, “it was too late,” says another senior presidential adviser.
[…] Safari by russian soldiers against human civilians, against civilians - it’s unspeakable. And I was committed even before the Bucha massacre, by the way it’s - the right spelling is butcher not bucca, I was committed to prosecuting all russian atrocities and war criminals, and to doing everything that I could as foreign minister to bring them to account, but now - uh I will be doing it until my last breath.”
So - you see, … when nobody at the time actually used the argument that it was “Butcha that was the reason why - we have to stop peace negotiations, to drive out the last russian from our country - before we can think about talks, because Butcha is how all Russian soldiers behave in Ukraine!” (or any part of that - at all). And everyone actually stated the complete opposite in public speeches on the record.
(Leaving out that little gem of a “you better dont tell the public nugget” --
Which then lead to secondary lies - when ukrainians hosted a Gregor Gysi visit, where when asked about why there were so many burned out tanks in Bucha - when the Russians supposedly left “on their own” his ukrainian guide told Gysi - that those would have been “Wagner Forces”… Something no one ever said, stated, repeated, indicated, or even hinted at -- in any other instance ever - before or after. What luck for Gysi to get told something no one else has ever publicly stated, during his visit in Butcha - when he probably asked a bit too much.… (It likely was BS on part of the guide, but it left an impression on Gysi - which Claudia Major did her utmost best to instantly burry under some “yeah - but thats not even important anymore” BS - live in the Spiegel TV Interview Studio. Fun times… src: click)
While it was actually Selenskyj himself stating on the record that -
“He also said at the time, days after the Butscha massacre was discovered in early April of 2022, he suggested that Putin might not be fully aware of the warcrimes that his soldiers are committing. And we still need to talk to Putin.”
an opinion which then changed “by the start of Summer for sure” (thats 1st of April 2022 (the Bucha massacre becomes known) plus 81 days until the 21th of June (start of summer in that year)), “partly under the influence of his advisers”
over the course of the next weeks that followed, his views, evolved partly under the influence of his advisors.
src: click (Simon Shuster at the Atlantic Council)
-- that opinion, gets completely wiped from the wider public record - to just establish the OPPOSITE as being the actual reason, why Ukraine NEEDEDTOBREAKOFF peace talks with russia.
Its because of Butscha, right?!
Two months ago - from me writing this now, Sabine Adler (longstanding East Europe Expert, Deutschlandfunk - und Experte dem die deutschen Medien vertrauen!), actually put this out there (at 1:20:00 in):
“Sabine Adler: Also die die Ukraine ist in Friedensgespräche gegangen, noch im Februar. [Bonus, Putin asked for them to be established on the second day of the war. Fun.] Diese Friedensgespräche haben angefangen in Gomel, da hat man sich mehrfach getroffen und die das Angebot der Ukraine durch Selenskij hat gelautet - Verzicht auf Natomitgliedschaft, Neutralität und Ausklammerung der Krim, das war also ein riesen Zugeständnis was im im Übrigen für Selenskij ein großes Risiko war, weil er gegen die eigene Verfassung verstoßen hat, in der Verfassung steht die Natoitgliedschaft als Verfassungsziel - er ist damit reingegangen, weil er dieses weitere Töten auf jeden Fall verhindern wollte. Diese Verhandlungen haben ungefähr geführt, sind gelaufen zunächst in Weißruss- in Belarus und dann in der Tat in der Türkei, dazwischen wissen Sie was Anfang April war? Butscha! Irpin! Berdjansk. All diese Geschichten waren da und da haben die Ukra da haben -- bitte das ist der
[Einwurf des Fragestellers]
Sabine Adler: Genau lassen Sie mich kurz no jetzt bin ich jetzt mal, sie wollten jetzt ihr Statement und ich wieder - ich sage jetzt etwas auf ihr Statement. Und Butscha und Irpin und all das was da deutlich geworden ist, hat für die Ukraine - es unmöglich gemacht zunächst weiter zu verhandeln das heißt also und Butscha war Anfang April und Boris Boris Johnson war Mitte oder Ende April [09th of April so eight days after Butscha] in Kiev nur mal das dazu dann hat man weiter dann hat man gesagt und und diese, diese Angebote die die ihnen gemacht hat, haben die russischen Unterhändler jeweils entgegengenommen und sie haben gesagt ja das ist etwas ganz vorsichtig vorsichtig das nehmen wir mit, das können wir mal so weitergeben - da sind sie sofort zurückgefiffen worden als sie nur diese relativ neutrale Kommentierung gemacht haben! [Yeah, the NYT states, that Putin told the head of his delegation to quickly bring the peace agreement further along at that time and not stall, and that the ukrainian delegation lead knew about that - but yeah… Why not invent absolute bullshit instead?]. Dann Ende April [9th of April] da sagen sie ist Johnson - sie verorten den sehr viel weiter früher [yeah and you 20 days later you absolut complete and utter…] war Johnson in in in Kiev und Johnson hat in der Tat gesagt er findet Verhandlungen überhaupt nicht gut. Die Verhandlungen wurden zunächst auf Eis gelegt und dann passierte im September etwas nämlich es es geschah die Einverleibung nicht nur von den sogenannten Volksrepubliken Lugansk und Donetzk in die Russische Föderation sondern auch Cherson und Saporischschja, die noch nicht mal erobert waren und sie wissen es vielleicht oder sie wissen es nicht - was einverleibt wird hat Verfassungsrang in Russland das heißt also das ist nicht irgendwas, was da beschlossen wurde und gefeiert wurde, sondern das war der damit ist der schriftliche verfassungsmäßige Auftrag diese Gebiete zu erobern, zu erobern und da hat ZelenskiJ nicht die Friedensgespräche abgebrochen sondern er hat gesagt mit Putin verhandle ich nicht mehr!”
Even there - no mention of “we need to break off the peace talks and get back all Ukrainian territories, because after Butscha, there is no way peace talks could have continued” but actually the opposite.
We will not mention for a minute that the actual order of events at the time was:
- 29th of March 2022: Presidential adviser of Selesnkyj demands “heavy weapons to drive all russians out of Ukraine” at a Conference in Istanbul
Ukrainian presidential adviser calls for heavier weaponry from the West as Russia shifts military focus
“Our partners must finally understand that the ‘Afghanization’ they want and the long-lasting exhausting conflict for Russia will not happen,” Podolyak said. “Russia will leave all Ukrainian territories except the south and east. And will try to dig in there, put in air defense and sharply reduce the loss of its equipment and personnel.”
Similar to the month-earlier version, the April 15 draft includes text in red highlighting issues in dispute. But such markings are almost entirely absent from the treaty’s first pages, where points of agreement emerged.
Negotiators agreed that Ukraine would declare itself permanently neutral, though it would be allowed to join the European Union.
Much of the treaty would “not apply” to Crimea and another to-be-determined swath of Ukraine — meaning that Kyiv would accept Russian occupation of part of its territory without recognizing Russian sovereignty over it.
But crucial sticking points remained.
[…]
The biggest problem, however, came in Article 5. It stated that, in the event of another armed attack on Ukraine, the “guarantor states” that would sign the treaty — Great Britain, China, Russia, the United States and France — would come to Ukraine’s defense.
To the Ukrainians’ dismay, there was a crucial departure from what Ukrainian negotiators said was discussed in Istanbul. Russia inserted a clause saying that all guarantor states, including Russia, had to approve the response if Ukraine were attacked. In effect, Moscow could invade Ukraine again and then veto any military intervention on Ukraine’s behalf — a seemingly absurd condition that Kyiv quickly identified as a dealbreaker.
Russia tried to secure a veto on Ukraine’s security guarantees by inserting a clause requiring unanimous consent.
“The Guarantor States and Ukraine agree that in the event of an armed attack on Ukraine, each of the Guarantor States … on the basis of a decision agreed upon by all Guarantor States, will provide … assistance to Ukraine, as a permanently neutral state under attack…”
With that change, a member of the Ukrainian negotiating team said, “we had no interest in continuing the talks.”
SOWITH A BUNCHOFCRICIALSTICKINGPOINTSREMAINING - THISISTHEPOINTWHEREUKRAINIANNEGOTIATORSDECIDED - NO, NOMORE - THATATTEMPTATSLIPPINGIN A VETOISTHHAAAAAABREEEEAKINGPOINT! NOMOREPEACETALKS!
THENCHRONOLOGICALLYTHISHAPPENS:
Davyd Arakhamiia: The goal of these negotiations was to create a sense of success in the initial phase.
He said that you need to make them feel that they can talk to us. Because if you remember, in the first few months, the Russians pushed the message that the Zelensky government was illegitimate, after the Maidan, after the coup, and so on. And after the second Session it seems Putin came out on TV and said that we recognize Zelenskys government as legitimate and we will negotiate with it.
Nataliia Moseichuk: So this phase was successful.
Davyd Arakhamiia: Yeah, this was the first goal and the second goal was to buy time. So we were basically building a smokescreen.
Then the Ukraine starts attacking again. Because the weapons arrived. Being successfull in Cherson (Offensive: 27. Juli 2022 – 11. November 2022).
Then the the Ukraine starts attacking again. being VERY successfull in Charkiew (6. September 2022 – 2. Oktober 2022).
Then on 30th of September 2022 Putin declares Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts annexed.
And then Selenskyj still doesnt officially break off the peace negotiations, they just continue ghosting every meeting of it since the end of April, so Selenskyj can remain “the PEACE president” - in all of fucking public dialog in german media. HORRAYHORRAY. --
Sorry - we forget all of that of course --
and still believe, that the Ukraine
HADTOSTOPNEGOTIATIONS, BECAUSETHEYSAWHOWTHERUSSIANSOLDIERBEHAVEDINHISNATURALHABITATINBUTCHA! WHICHIS A BLUEPRINTFORHOWTHERUSSIANBEHAVESINTHEENTIRETYOFUKRAINE! -
Even though Selenskyj stated this - after Butscha -
“He also said at the time, days after the Butscha massacre was discovered in early April of 2022, he suggested that Putin might not be fully aware of the warcrimes that his soldiers are committing. And we still need to talk to Putin.
src: click (Simon Shuster at the Atlantic Council)
And it took the ukrainian propaganda department until the start of summer (thats 81 days after Butscha) for the public messaging to change.
Even though - 14 days after Butcha (15th of April), the Ukrianian delegation knew that it didnt want to continue negotiations, because of Russias demand for a veto, which was the ACTUAL dealbreaker (new western Propaganda line, why not…)
Even though Davyd Arakhamiia clearly stated
Davyd Arakhamiia: Yeah, this was the first goal and the second goal was to buy time. So we were basically building a smokescreen.
Even though Selenskyj still didnt break off Peace talks “officially” after on 30th of September 2022 Putin declares Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk and Zaporizhzhia oblasts annexed.
Quote:
Und dann passierte im September etwas nämlich es es geschah die Einverleibung nicht nur von den sogenannten Volksrepubliken Lugansk und Donetzk in die Russische Föderation sondern auch Cherson und Saporischschja, die noch nicht mal erobert waren und sie wissen es vielleicht oder sie wissen es nicht - was einverleibt wird hat Verfassungsrang in Russland das heißt also das ist nicht irgendwas, was da beschlossen wurde und gefeiert wurde, sondern das war der damit ist der schriftliche verfassungsmäßige Auftrag diese Gebiete zu erobern, zu erobern und da hat ZelenskiJ nicht die Friedensgespräche abgebrochen sondern er hat gesagt mit Putin verhandle ich nicht mehr!”
src: click
(Sabine Adler longstanding East Europe Expert, Deutschlandfunk on the 5th of April 2024)
ANDYOUFUCKINGBELIEVETHIS?!
YOUFUCKINGASSININEFUCKINGIDIOTS,
YOU --
Diese Gesellschaft ist das absolut grotesk und abartigst ALLERLETZTE.
And then we treat everyone who knows that - like an absolute fucking Putin apologist, tool, idiot, leper, …
BECAUSEYOUFUCKINGATEUPTHATPROPAGANDALIKE A FUCKINGKIPFERLATBREAKFAST - you utter, utter, scumm.
Achja, und da Kaiser Franz Joseph is ja in den Krieg - weil sie seinen Sohn getötet haben - net woa?
Great to finally get a grasp on the wider publics - utter, utter intelligence.
Gut, Propaganda hat jetzt aber leider wieder niemand entdeckt.
Und die Geschichte mit den signalenden US (“US and NATO officials struggle to decipher the status of peace negotiations between Russia and Ukraine”), die am 20. März 2022 “plötzlich nicht mehr gewusst haben wo die Ukraine steht” (hatte da doch der Präsident Selensky verlautbart eine “neutrale Ukraine” sei etwas worüber er nachdenke), worauf am selben Tag (!) der ehemalige ukrainische Verteidigungsminister Zagorodnyuk, jetzt Atlantic Council Mitglied, bei Times Radio vorsprechen und die ukrainische Position erläutern musste:
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