- now has gotten a Fukuyama on top!
I mean one thing that shapes my whole reaction to it is uh uh my sad recognition that the U.S has been a flagrant a violator of international law and for that reason I think in terms you know uh it’s it’s not as if uh you know well I I worry about uh the the the the the risks associated with trying to push Russia all the way uh uh out of Ukraine just in terms of likelihood of nuclear war but I also worry that it will not um have nearly as much positive effect in terms of reinforcing the norm of respecting international law as it would have had if we ourselves um respected it but, but I want to ask you I mean I also have this view that we kind of misplayed our hand over the last 25 years uh and uh and we could be living in a very different world that didn’t have a Ukraine war if uh if we hadn’t and I think that I want to ask you if you don’t agree with some of that because I remember you know there was a conversation uh this this podcast non-zero was previously under I started this thing called uh co-founding this thing called blogging heads TV that kind of evolved into this, I remember a conversation on that platform between you and Bob Kagan - and you were predicting at that point that uh what we had done in Kosovo not just the military intervention but we had just I think started to recognize Kosovo’s Independence and by the way, that was I think most people would say an illegal violation of international law, that that uh that intervention at least a lot of people say that - um and you predicted that Putin would um well exploit that or that would make it more likely that he would start screwing around in Georgia which he subsequently did so I want to ask you were you a Critic of some of our early Russia policy including NATO expansion or not -
Uh well look uh you know I know you interviewed uh John Mearsheimer I, mean John is an old friend and colleague of mine but I think he’s just been completely wrong and he’s been playing a very very unhelpful role, ever since the uh Russian invasion started, yeah I mean - I was not in favor of taking Georgia and Ukraine into NATO, back in 2008 when the Bush Administration pushed that okay, it wasn’t uh it wasn’t for uh the reasons however - that John uh cites it was really because I thought that you know I started out as a as a military Analyst at the Rand Corporation, and one of the things you know is that you can’t support a military operation if you don’t have the right military logistics and it just seemed to me that it would be very very difficult to actually defend Georgia and Ukraine and Ukraine you know at that time being, you know divided between uh russian-speaking East and a more Ukrainian uh West… Actually right now I’m completely in favor of taking Ukraine into NATO I don’t see how you’re going to end this war if if you if Ukraine doesn’t actually become a member of NATO, but I think that you know the the problem I had with, with Mearsheimer’s argument is, that he’s completely oblivious to what Putin is actually saying - and of course, Putin has complained about uh NATO expansion uh and so forth but - the deeper arguments are so much broader than that you know, he thinks that the the collapse of the Soviet Union was a huge uh tragedy she thinks that the Slavic peoples you know really have a destiny that uh includes the combination of all the weaker uh countries around him and that was not driven by any kind of threat you know from what’s essentially a defensive Alliance - it comes from his understanding of Catherine the Great and Peter the Great -- and you know Russia’s Destiny as uh you know as a Eurasian power uh and so I think that - um - uh - yeah so I, I just think that there are so many other drivers of what Putin ended up doing uh, that NATO expansion you know - it was, it was imprudent it gave him a good excuse I guess this is the way I would put it it gave him an excuse to do what he wanted to do anyhow that has now become persuasive among a certain audience in the west and therefore has weakened you know the Western uh uh uh uh support for for Ukraine uh but I would agree with you that we’ve made a lot of mistakes. I mean the invasion of Iraq was a huge mistake uh I think thats one of the reasons that we uh that Ukraine hasn’t gotten as much uh support in the global South uh that we or people like me think it deserves, uh is because of Iraq certainly in the Arab world I’ve had Arab friends tell me that look you did the same thing in 2003 so why are we supposed to get so excited about Ukraine? Uh when you know you did it your s-- - now, I do believe that you can make a both a moral and a political argument why these are two very different cases you know. Iraq was a really rapacious dictatorship uh in Ukraine as a you know pretty good democracy, but I can appreciate the point that you know in terms of Crossing International borders with military force that was a terrible precedent, we sat and we’ve made certainly many other mistakes in especially in the Middle East because I just think that we don’t know what we’re doing in that region um uh you know that that have weakened our position but - you know Vietnam was a mistake too I mean, a lot of mistakes - yeah uh well I don’t want to I mean I I kind of think Putin’s uh, the world view you described has to some extent evolved more than we appreciate uh you know and the things he’s saying that seemed to go so far beyond a Mearsheimer world of just National Security as a motivation, I think uh kind of got a lot more pronounced and crystallized - I think in response to his perception that we uh kept uh keeping disrespecting him but that’s that’s another um argument there I mean it goes beyond NATO expansion in terms of the things he was uh unhappy with - but […]
Zu dumm eigentlich dass Naftali Bennett das anders charakterisiert hat…
B: I got a call from this guy, Zelensky, the leader of Ukraine, I heard he’s a Jew, a comedian, …
I: Hanoch Daum turned prime minister…
B: Something like that.
I: -God forbid.
B: And he asked me nicely if I can ask Putin to talk to him, to meet with him.
I waited with that, we’ve been there some 5 and a half hours, we’re talking, and then I say, oh, Zelensky asked me to ask you if you can meet. He was the nicest man up to then and his gaze turned cold.
“They’re Nazis, they’re warmongers [!!! Security Interest maybe!!! JUST A GUESS?!], I won’t meet him.
“They’re pro-Nazis.” Now, he has an entire theory and narrative surrounding this issue.
If we go back to World War II, Ukraine definitely was an accomplice at certain times…I: Were you shocked by his answer?
B: I was surprised when his demeanor changed. Second… he had liquor. Now, I don’t like alcohol, whiskey and the like.
Wine is the most I can drink.
But the wine isn’t kosher. So…
He removes a bottle of wine, I look at Elkin and say, tell him that I don’t want wine now.
“Then what will you have?”
I don’t know what to ask for, I’m no expert.
Gin and tonic on the rocks…“Would you like vodka?”
I: -Was he pouring the drinks?B: Yes, it was the three of us.
I: –Wow.
B: -Me, him and Elkin the interpreter. So I said… he has vodka in his hand, so I said yes.So I had to drink vodka.
I: -Was it disgusting? That’s rough. Imagine if you got drunk.
B: -Yes.He was very courteous and and we formed a relationship that will soon manifest, before the war.
I: You got stuck there on the Sabbath.
B : -Yes, I stayed in the hotel. He was very courteous. He heard that my wife is a chef, that she was a dancer, he invited us to St. Petersburg, he realized I got stuck on the Sabbath.He didn’t understand so I explained, I can’t on the Sabbath, so he sent a basket with lots of nice things, including bacon. He didn’t know. Cheese and meat…
I: -Hilarious.B: He was very courteous and hospitable.
I: –Okay.
B: So we formed a relationship in Sochi, we talked on the phone about all kinds of matters, but meanwhile things with Ukraine were starting to heat up.
December, 21st of January.
I’m not too preoccupied with it at the time, I’m not familiar with the map and Ukraine… Not a major issue to me. I’m overseas, I don’t remember if it was Bahrain or the Emirates, and the Americans are saying that war is imminent. There’s a debate whether or not to invade.
So what I focus on is getting Israelis out as quickly as possible.
I think it was on the 24th…
I: -From Ukraine?B: –Yes. Because… I’ll tell you something in general. When it comes to the world, foreign policy and all that, my focus is on Israel’s interests.
That may be a narrow view, but my primary focus is on…
I: Your people.
B: -My people. Soon the strategy will come to light in this regard. The war breaks out.I: Do you want to get the Israelis out or the Jews?
B: The Israelis at this point.
I: -Okay. And based on the policy are you thinking that this is war?
B: They’re going in and… The entire world thinks that this invasion will be a piece of cake.There’s not that much talk of conquering Ukraine, more of defeating Ukraine.
Everyone knows that Zelensky is finished, America suggests Zelensky seek refuge with them, this is public information.
I started studying the topic. When a new topic comes up I want to understand what the strategy of each side can be, but the world fully understands there’s no competition in this regard.
The war breaks out and I’m instantly between a rock and a hard place.
On the one hand, the Americans clearly expect, this is largely led by the Americans, that we all rally for Ukraine.
On the other hand, I have two opposing interests.
One is our routine activity in Syria, once or twice a week - we attack the Iranian presence in Syria, and Russia, the superpower, has the S-300 there, and if they press the button, Israeli pilots will fall.
I: Who will save them?
B: Who will rescue the next Ron Arad? Biden? Zelensky? It will be my problem.
So all the talk [!] of being on the right side of history, …
I get it, but I have a national need.
Second, there are many Jews in Ukraine and Russia and as prime minister of the Jewish state, I have a responsibility.
So what do I do?
I came up with a strategy that says, when I’m pressured on two sides, I take a third and the third was creating contact with both sides and trying to mediate.
Jetzt ist es wieder so unglaublich erstaunlich, dass das deutsche Auswärtige Amt und der Deutsche Verteidigungs Ausschuss, immer im Gleichschritt mit den der Medienberichterstattung (also wenn wieder mal ein ehemaliger US Botschafter ZUUUUUUUFÄLLIG bei den Munk Debates fallen lässt, dass er auf dem Weg zur Debatte Snyder gelesen hat, und das (Bloodlines) ein so ein tolles Buch ist, und da drin eigentlich alles steht was man über diesen Krieg wissen muss), von Revisionismus als Kriegsgrund zuerst zu Neokolonialismus, und dann zu Imperialismus gewechselt sind.
Während Snyder das Imperialismus Argument erfunden und in die Öffentlichkeit getragen hat (er macht das selbe Argument bereits seit seiner Promotion, und PLÖTZLICH wird er jetzt Teil des gefeaturten Media Circuits und der Experte schlechthin.). Während Fiona Hill bei der Brookings Institution [What is the Brookings institution?] das Catherine the Great and Peter the Great Argument für die Öffentlichkeit erfindet.
Oh, und Fukuyama hat keine Ahnung wovon er spricht - davon wir sind jetzt aber nicht wirklich überrascht, oder?
Diese Gesellschaft ist das absolut abgrundtief Letzte.
